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Author Topic: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan  (Read 215642 times)

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2010, 10:03:50 AM »
My problems with a plugin to vote in-game:

- Only allows people to vote during the map, on the test server.*
- Encourages using less thought, rushing through the ratings to get through the menus.
- Updating live will show the position of the maps, and influence the rating.

* This is the big one here. People need to be able to test the maps at their leisure if they wish and play on their own server throughout the week. Voting on a map when in the server is a weak system, I think. It is clean and pretty, but I don't think it yields good results.

If there were a website to go to that would have a form to fill out it would be nice. Doesn't have to be done by e-mail.

As for the 'krusty-thing' I don't think it will be an issue. In the end, the SS members are going to be voting publically on the top scorers. We will come to a pretty clear consensus I think.

Offline unt0uch4bl3

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #81 on: July 14, 2010, 11:05:26 AM »
I know showing votes live is a bad idea because it will influence votes (I realized it after I posted and didn't feel like editing, as I do with many things actually)

As for rushing the votes, why are you so sure they wouldn't be rushing it through email? Plus votes can be faked by people voting for others. Either way it was just a suggestion mainly to save the hassle of looking through tons of emails.

Doing it solely on a website is extremly exploitable. It'll just result in spam ratings and it'll take longer to figure out which ones are real or not than to count it manually.

The main point I wanted to make is doing it in game is secure. Everyone's steamids are unique and voting rights can be given per steamid for whoever wants to participate.

Go with the email process unless some one has any more ideas

« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 11:12:25 AM by unt0uch4bl3 »


Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #82 on: July 14, 2010, 11:18:59 AM »
Doing it solely on a website is extremly exploitable. It'll just result in spam ratings and it'll take longer to figure out which ones are real or not than to count it manually.

I kinda disagree with this, you offcourse could make a simple 1 ip = 1 vote system.
I know you could fake this with proxy shit an such things.. but he, people really go that far to get a rating?

The other thing that popped up in my mind is creating an ingame plugin which does the following:
If you say !votekey you will get a unique key to vote with, this will be saved in a database along with the steamid (so you can only say it  once).

After that you can keep playing or start it singleplayer to explore the map. And if you are ready to vote you will go to a website, enter your voting key and make the vote...

I think thats a cool system because you know the voters really played the map and they aren't rushed to vote. Also the map maker can't sent a mail to his MSN list with: go to this site and vote, because they need a key.

P.s. I am willing to make a website like this, but the ingame plugin can't be made by me, ask untouchable (A)

Offline spoz

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2010, 11:42:22 AM »
The other thing that popped up in my mind is creating an ingame plugin which does the following:
If you say !votekey you will get a unique key to vote with, this will be saved in a database along with the steamid (so you can only say it  once).

A similar thing has been done before, if I recall it was a mod for phpBB that would only allow you to register if you played on the forum's server by creating a truncated SHA1 hash from the player's steam ID and IP, and of course salted.

Another way we could do it is link in to the forum's DB, one vote per account. Would be easy to locate sock puppets with this method and keep the 1 vote/1 player system.



Also: 1337 post alert.
Quote
But if u really wanna see a screwed up map take a look at that greatriver awesome 1... freaked the shit out of me... its like a child molestation adventure.....

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2010, 11:42:57 AM »
If we were to use a website for the form, it would be nice to have something like this:

SS Name of Rater: [Fill In]
Map Name: [Drop Down]
Looks: [Drop Down 1-10]
Gameplay: [Drop Down 1-20]
Themed: [Drop Down 1-5]
Describe the map in 5 words or less: [Fill In]
Best in Compeition Pick [Yes/No]

When you Submit, it records the IP. If we get multiple entries from the same SS member, I can cross reference those odd ones out against the IPs used by their SS forum account. Also, if the submitting name does not appear in the SS forum member list, it can be disregarded.

Would this be easy to implement?

Offline spoz

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2010, 12:08:31 PM »
When you Submit, it records the IP. If we get multiple entries from the same SS member, I can cross reference those odd ones out against the IPs used by their SS forum account. Also, if the submitting name does not appear in the SS forum member list, it can be disregarded.

What happens with people with dynamic IPs?
Quote
But if u really wanna see a screwed up map take a look at that greatriver awesome 1... freaked the shit out of me... its like a child molestation adventure.....

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2010, 01:04:10 PM »
The forum keeps track of all ips used to view pages and perform things like posts. Should be somewhat easy to cross-reference. Would only be used for strange data anyways, like if we got multiple results for the same map from the same submitter. Hopefully shouldn't need to weed out stuff like that at all.

These results are just a guideline anyways. The community is going to end up doing voting on the 'top maps' on the forums.

Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2010, 01:06:59 PM »
A similar thing has been done before, if I recall it was a mod for phpBB that would only allow you to register if you played on the forum's server by creating a truncated SHA1 hash from the player's steam ID and IP, and of course salted.

Another way we could do it is link in to the forum's DB, one vote per account. Would be easy to locate sock puppets with this method and keep the 1 vote/1 player system.



Also: 1337 post alert.

The similar thing you talk about sounds really dumbly (is a word?) created... Why wouldn't you just use a total random key and save it to a db along with the steamid (+ other info)?

The linking to this forum sounds great too, but i don't think sintaxerror would allow this (and you should thank him).

If we were to use a website for the form, it would be nice to have something like this:

SS Name of Rater: [Fill In]
Map Name: [Drop Down]
Looks: [Drop Down 1-10]
Gameplay: [Drop Down 1-20]
Themed: [Drop Down 1-5]
Describe the map in 5 words or less: [Fill In]
Best in Compeition Pick [Yes/No]

When you Submit, it records the IP. If we get multiple entries from the same SS member, I can cross reference those odd ones out against the IPs used by their SS forum account. Also, if the submitting name does not appear in the SS forum member list, it can be disregarded.

Would this be easy to implement?

That indeed is really easy to create \
As i said, i am willing to do this.

What happens with people with dynamic IPs?

For as far as i know if you have a "dynamic ip" your ip does NOT change every day or so.. May change once a month or even year...

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2010, 01:09:16 PM »
As long as they visit the forum one or more times with the same IP they submit with, it won't make a difference.

Not that I think this is the best system. I would like something more automated, if it isn't too much of a hassle.

Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2010, 01:11:22 PM »
As long as they visit the forum one or more times with the same IP they submit with, it won't make a difference.

Not that I think this is the best system. I would like something more automated, if it isn't too much of a hassle.

Then what do you think of the system I posted before: go ingame, get a key, go to a site, make your vote.
Its pretty automated and really simple for the end-user

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2010, 01:14:15 PM »
Still requires you to join the specific server to get the key. Not a big deal, but I was hoping to make judging accesible to any member of the forum, who could DL the map online, and play it locally.

Am I correct in saying that we should encourage rating to be done by only SS forum members?

Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2010, 01:17:05 PM »
Still requires you to join the specific server to get the key. Not a big deal, but I was hoping to make judging accesible to any member of the forum, who could DL the map online, and play it locally.

Am I correct in saying that we should encourage rating to be done by only SS forum members?

Ahh, now i get you :p
But my guess is that sintaxerror is not going to give us the forum DB. Because its just not safe for the members.
So then you would just have to make a site and hope people won't cheat... but its the 21st century so.. \

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2010, 01:19:23 PM »
Well, in what ways can a person cheat?

The only way I see is to submit a score under another forums member's name. I feel like it wouldn't be hard to weed those out.

Or we could just make a thread on the forum where people reply in a set format. Not too hard to do, but then the votes wouldn't be anonymous to the public.

Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2010, 01:22:59 PM »
Well, in what ways can a person cheat?

The only way I see is to submit a score under another forums member's name. I feel like it wouldn't be hard to weed those out.

I think we are not getting each other...
Is your idea just to put up a website with a form and a database... Connected to nothing else (like the forum or server)?
In that way i think its pretty easy to cheat. Find a name on the forum, and fill in that name. Now you can say: Check it via IP. But if you are doing that you might have to check like 50 / 100 people.. And that is much to check manually.

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2010, 01:30:24 PM »
We could always require people to sign up to be a judge on the forum, we PM them a password and then make the name entry space a drop-down? It might actually be nice to have a catalog of all the actual judges.

Is that getting to be too much?

I mean, if someone wants to cheat this, there is really no way to stop them. Anyone can get a new IP, or forum account. Some people have multiple steam IDs. And using steam IDs requires entry to the special server anyways.

EDIT FOR CLARITY - I mean: have people request to be a judge on the forums in a special thread. Their names would be added to a list of judges and they would get a password in a PM. Then we would have a roster of judges; to submit a score on the site, you would choose your name from a list, and type in your password as one of the fields.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 02:00:23 PM by FAJ »

Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2010, 01:52:47 PM »
We could always require people to sign up to be a judge on the forum, we PM them a password and then make the name entry space a drop-down? It might actually be nice to have a catalog of all the actual judges.

Is that getting to be too much?

I mean, if someone wants to cheat this, there is really no way to stop them. Anyone can get a new IP, or forum account. Some people have multiple steam IDs. And using steam IDs requires entry to the special server anyways.

Wait, wait.. Your first sentence, i really don't get you :p
My native language isn't english as you might know. Please simplify it :p

About the cheating part, you are right.. If you really really want to cheat you can cheat.

Offline unt0uch4bl3

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2010, 02:12:34 PM »
He is saying give people voting rights. When they vote they will have to input a special password assigned to them to actually submit the vote. The username field would be a drop down box with all the judges' names in alphabetical order let's say.

Edit: something I wanted to mention before (why I liked the ingame process better for security purposes) is the good thing about steamids is they are very easily converted to steam community profile ids and the other way around.  From the steam community it is very easy to see if this person is who he says he is. Just something you guys may have not known
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 02:27:38 PM by unt0uch4bl3 »


Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2010, 03:11:30 PM »
He is saying give people voting rights. When they vote they will have to input a special password assigned to them to actually submit the vote. The username field would be a drop down box with all the judges' names in alphabetical order let's say.

Edit: something I wanted to mention before (why I liked the ingame process better for security purposes) is the good thing about steamids is they are very easily converted to steam community profile ids and the other way around.  From the steam community it is very easy to see if this person is who he says he is. Just something you guys may have not known

Ahh, ok.. Now i get it. Thats quite easy to make.

About the steam id's, thats true... Hadn't even thought about it. Its can be converted with a special algorithm. So with this you could really be sure there are no cheaters.. actually.
Ofcourse it IS possible to combine the two methods. People can get a special key ingame, but if someone cant be at the beta or general test a admin can assign a key to him \
Wouldn't that be perfect?

P.s. Untouchable, are you willing to create a plugin (sourcemod) to store the Steamid's + keys to a database? (with the general checks: Look if the key isn't present yet and the steamid isn't present yet), the rest can be done by me (And you?) in php.

Offline spoz

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2010, 03:20:20 PM »
For as far as i know if you have a "dynamic ip" your ip does NOT change every day or so.. May change once a month or even year...

It changes every time the connection drops, could be as often as once every 10 minutes if you want it to be.

But my guess is that sintaxerror is not going to give us the forum DB. Because its just not safe for the members.

Just use the api...
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 03:22:02 PM by spoz »
Quote
But if u really wanna see a screwed up map take a look at that greatriver awesome 1... freaked the shit out of me... its like a child molestation adventure.....

Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2010, 03:39:14 PM »
It changes every time the connection drops, could be as often as once every 10 minutes if you want it to be.

Hmm, didn't know this. For as far as i know this system isn't used in The Netherlands.

Just use the api...

Srsly... This forum / board has an API? :\

Offline TIMAE

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2010, 03:42:50 PM »
In Germany the IP changes every 24 hours....

Offline Sangfroid

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2010, 04:59:28 PM »
i think this is going over the top a bit.. but if i was going to suggest a method, it'd be somewhat like FAJ&arjen said... mishmash:

external page -> enter ss forum username
submit -> server logs in ss -> PM username generated password (or if people wouldn't mind setting their email public -> wouldn't need to mess with logging in)
user checks mail -> copypaste password to confirm vote

~i copied this from someone else. it's awesome~

Offline spoz

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2010, 05:10:05 PM »
Hmm, didn't know this. For as far as i know this system isn't used in The Netherlands.

Srsly... This forum / board has an API? :\

http://download.simplemachines.org/?tools
Sintax just needs to install it like any plugin.
Quote
But if u really wanna see a screwed up map take a look at that greatriver awesome 1... freaked the shit out of me... its like a child molestation adventure.....

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2010, 05:15:26 PM »
So, could Sintax put a button up (where the donate button used to be) that a member could click and submit map votes through the SS forums website?

Offline spoz

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2010, 05:22:15 PM »
Kinda, the page can be hosted externally, and draw data directly from the forums

Code: [Select]
bool smf_setLoginCookie(int length, string username or int ID_MEMBER,
   string password, bool encrypted = true)
- sets a cookie and session variables to log the user in, for length
 seconds from now.
- will find the ID_MEMBER for you if you specify a username.
- please ensure that the username has slashes added to it.
- does no authentication, but if the cookie is wrong it won't work.
- expects the password to be pre-encrypted if encrypted is true.
- returns false on failure (unlikely!), true on success.
- you should call smf_authenticateUser after calling this.

bool smf_authenticateUser()
- authenticates the user with the current cookie ro session data.
- loads data into the $smf_user_info variable.
- returns false if it was unable to authenticate, true otherwise.
- it would be good to call this at the beginning.

void smf_logOnline(string action = $_GET['action'])
- logs the currently authenticated user or guest as online.
- may not always log, because it delays logging if at all possible.
- uses the action specified as the action in the log, a good example
 would be "coppermine" or similar.
- you can add entries to the Modifications language files so as to
 make this action show up properly on Who's Online - see Who.php for
 more details.

bool smf_isOnline(string username or int ID_MEMBER)
- checks if the specified member is currently online.
- will find the appropriate ID_MEMBER if username is given instead.
- returns true if they are online, false otherwise.

resource smf_query(string query, string file, int line)
- executes a query using SMF's database connection.
- keeps a count of queries in the $smf_settings['db_count'] setting.
- if an error occurs while executing the query, additionally logs an
 error in SMF's error log with the proper information.
- does not do any crashed table prevention.

bool smf_allowedTo(string permission)
- checks to see if the user is allowed to do the specified permission
 or any of an array of permissions.
- always returns true for administrators.
- does not account for banning restrictions.
- caches all available permissions upon first call.
- does not provide access to board permissions.
- returns null if no connection to the database has been made, and
 true or false depending on the user's permissions.

void smf_loadSession()
- loads the session, whether from the database or from files.
- makes the session_id available in $smf_user_info.
- will override session handling if the setting is enabled in SMF's
 configuration.

bool smf_sessionOpen(string save_path, string session_name)
bool smf_sessionRead(string session_id)
bool smf_sessionWrite(string session_id, string data)

They're the main features of the API that we'd be interested in. I've got a test board running on devbox.local so I'll have a play around see if we can get something working.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 05:27:10 PM by spoz »
Quote
But if u really wanna see a screwed up map take a look at that greatriver awesome 1... freaked the shit out of me... its like a child molestation adventure.....

Offline Arjenlodder

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2010, 07:08:47 PM »
Yeah, i saw the API indeed, i can work with that i guess..

Edit: I've been looking into the API, and with Sintax' (and Ryan_S as topic starter) permission i will built a little script where you have to login and then get a list of the maps and then be able to rate for different catogeries... And offcourse also leave a comment!

Sintax, if you agree please pm or mail me (need some files) \
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 07:20:55 PM by Arjenlodder »

Offline Godowner

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2010, 12:28:10 PM »
I don't think we should announce who made which map, to avoid biased votes.


CURRENT PROJECTS:

ARE_YOU_A_RETARD

Offline Sangfroid

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2010, 01:30:14 PM »
I don't think we should announce who made which map, to avoid biased votes.
haha, i think it would be really interesting to see the results for anonymously submitted maps, but once again it's hard to moderate and already unfair since razer submitted in waves. i'm sure the feedback and results would be significantly different if it was possible, though.

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Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2010, 01:47:21 PM »
The mapper won't be able to be kept hidden. If someone is obviously biased or prejudiced, their votes can be discarded.

Offline cornibulus

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2010, 04:58:58 PM »
Entering this

Also, why aren't you allowed to map with other people in a team? That seems like it could hinder a map that would've been better with more than one mapper

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2010, 05:11:23 PM »
Also, why aren't you allowed to map with other people in a team? That seems like it could hinder a map that would've been better with more than one mapper

Do we have to work alone?

Edit: Two man teams is what I mean. Seems like that'd be fair.
I make my maps with Microsoft Paint.

Offline DESE

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2010, 05:50:57 PM »
Quote
Maps can be truncated shorter to 20 by majority vote if they are truly unbearable.
LAWL

Btw I think FAJ's idea for the contest is brilliant!

I read the first post several times but are there really no restrictions? No max percentage?
Can we use a map that was already started before you opened this topic?

And also GOOSE/RYAN S: Can you please not forget to add me on the participants list, I told to participate a while ago maybe you missed it?
Thx
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Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2010, 05:52:37 PM »
My guess is, because it is a competition?

Why can't 2 people run a marathon, relay style with one waiting in the middle? You would get a better time that way.

Maybe unfair advantage? A 10 man team can make a huge complicated map in a short peiod of time, when a single person wouldn't have the time to do all that?

I don't know exactly why, but I think I agree with the rules that it should be a one mapper deal. You enter the competition as the participant; not really like entering a horse into a race, which could be sponsored by many people.

Offline DESE

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2010, 05:59:14 PM »
FAJ if there's one thing I like about you it would most defo be your control of rhetoric \
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Offline RazerSurf

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2010, 06:05:23 PM »
Make a fucking thread where people vote, simple as that.. Focus more on making maps...

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2010, 06:08:57 PM »
By the way a NSFW themed map is already taken  \


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Offline TIMAE

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2010, 06:16:50 PM »
I dont know what NSFW means, but there are to much mapper to not have two map with the same theme.

Offline cornibulus

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2010, 06:18:57 PM »
My guess is, because it is a competition?

Why can't 2 people run a marathon, relay style with one waiting in the middle? You would get a better time that way.

Maybe unfair advantage? A 10 man team can make a huge complicated map in a short peiod of time, when a single person wouldn't have the time to do all that?

I don't know exactly why, but I think I agree with the rules that it should be a one mapper deal. You enter the competition as the participant; not really like entering a horse into a race, which could be sponsored by many people.

The way I see it is if the underlying goal of the competition is to incentivize a bunch of mappers to produce quality maps, two-man teams should be allowed. Would you prefer the contest yielded 10 shoddy maps or 5 refined ones? A marathon is different; there is no product created by the participants, so it is designed to force people to exert themselves if they want to win. In a mapping competition, if everyone quickly throws something together for time's sake, there is a chance that the resulting maps may not be as good as they could of been without a time limit.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, certain races do allow teams, just not relay-style.

Offline FAJ

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2010, 06:31:18 PM »
I thought that bragging rights were the incentive of an online competition with no prize? If you don't want to be the sole winner, why didn't your team just make the quality map in the first place, without the competition?

They were just guesses, I don't know why the restriction is in the rules. I am not really against the teams, I just don't see the attraction, I suppose. I would not be upset to see Ryan/Goose allow teams of any size. I would also understand if he stood by solo-productions-only.


Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: Solidsurf mapping contest hosted by Goose and Ryan
« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2010, 09:38:10 PM »
If anything, just two man teams would be fair. Anything more than that would throw off the balance of the competition.
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