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Author Topic: Map flow  (Read 4605 times)

Offline Godowner

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Map flow
« on: February 04, 2011, 03:25:22 PM »
Something really interesting i found, i thought it related to the development of surf maps:

http://www.jenovachen.com/flowingames/introduction.htm

I often find that hard maps are not fun to play, you may say i just suck at surfing but i think where people are going wrong is that the difficulty is very high from start to finish, i believe that surf maps should start easy then gradually get harder (no sexual inuendo intended). Just my opinion.. your perfectly entitled to your own opinion ofc.

It's a long read but it's really interesting   \


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Offline Skittl35

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 03:50:00 PM »
I often find that hard maps are not fun to play, you may say i just suck at surfing but i think where people are going wrong is that the difficulty is very high from start to finish, i believe that surf maps should start easy then gradually get harder

Do you think that if you were able to complete the maps you'd have fun on them?  I know if I were able to complete a map like curious I'd have a lot of fun on that map - more than I already do.  I'm not very good at it (I can get about half way through on a good day) but I love the visuals and the surf is pretty fun as well.  However, a map like syria seems to exist exclusively to be challenging...and the fun from a map like this comes from being able to beat a stage.  So, beat yourself up surfing a stage, but when you complete it, celebrate.

Personally, I think if more mappers took the approach of "where/how would I want to surf next, if I were surfing this" rather than "now how should I shaft/annoy/forceragequit the player" while creating the layout, we'd have a lot of fun (even if) challenging surf maps being made.  The approach I mentioned first probably was used in maps like tomb4, curious, etc.  It's the method I used to make the surf in waterworks, and doubt I'm the only who's done it.

Offline SKAR

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 09:08:38 PM »
Thx for the tips guys i learned a lot

Offline Godowner

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 11:08:09 PM »
Do you think that if you were able to complete the maps you'd have fun on them?  I know if I were able to complete a map like curious I'd have a lot of fun on that map - more than I already do.  I'm not very good at it (I can get about half way through on a good day) but I love the visuals and the surf is pretty fun as well.  However, a map like syria seems to exist exclusively to be challenging...and the fun from a map like this comes from being able to beat a stage.  So, beat yourself up surfing a stage, but when you complete it, celebrate.

Personally, I think if more mappers took the approach of "where/how would I want to surf next, if I were surfing this" rather than "now how should I shaft/annoy/forceragequit the player" while creating the layout, we'd have a lot of fun (even if) challenging surf maps being made.  The approach I mentioned first probably was used in maps like tomb4, curious, etc.  It's the method I used to make the surf in waterworks, and doubt I'm the only who's done it.

That's the problem, if the map is too easy it's just boring and want to move onto something else, if it's too hard you just get fed up. I think it's really hard to get it right and i rarely see maps that achieve this. I guess it just comes down to testing, while your beta testing your map don't just invite popular, experience surfers from your friends list, find people who are not as experienced and you will have an idea as to how fun your map is to play.


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Offline Knife

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 11:32:39 PM »
That's the problem, if the map is too easy it's just boring and want to move onto something else, if it's too hard you just get fed up. I think it's really hard to get it right and i rarely see maps that achieve this. I guess it just comes down to testing, while your beta testing your map don't just invite popular, experience surfers from your friends list, find people who are not as experienced and you will have an idea as to how fun your map is to play.

surf_evolution..

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Why so Ryan?

Offline SintaxError

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 06:18:06 AM »
That is definitely an interesting thesis.  He brings up some excellent talking points, but I'm not sure how dynamic difficulty adjustment he talks about can be applied to surf maps.

That's the problem, if the map is too easy it's just boring and want to move onto something else, if it's too hard you just get fed up. I think it's really hard to get it right and i rarely see maps that achieve this. I guess it just comes down to testing, while your beta testing your map don't just invite popular, experience surfers from your friends list, find people who are not as experienced and you will have an idea as to how fun your map is to play.

I think the bit about testing is good advice.

I also think the trick, at least with surf maps, may not necessarily lie in building on perfect path that everyone can be happy with.  Rather, it might be better to make more difficult paths with better rewards.  This is nothing new, and you should be able to think of a few maps that use this technique already.  Of course, it's impossible to know the player's preference of rewards - usually only weapons can be offered or some sort of control over the jail area.  This would be a great area to get creative with.

We can't have a complicated AI adjust the difficulty of a surf map (not that I know of anyway), but both timers and other players might prove useful in adjusting the difficulty of a surf path.  It's of course up to the mapper to figure out the specifics, but the most likely way to change difficulty would be through manipulating obstacles.

Offline Knife

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 06:58:23 AM »
That is definitely an interesting thesis.  He brings up some excellent talking points, but I'm not sure how dynamic difficulty adjustment he talks about can be applied to surf maps.

I think the bit about testing is good advice.

I also think the trick, at least with surf maps, may not necessarily lie in building on perfect path that everyone can be happy with.  Rather, it might be better to make more difficult paths with better rewards.  This is nothing new, and you should be able to think of a few maps that use this technique already.  Of course, it's impossible to know the player's preference of rewards - usually only weapons can be offered or some sort of control over the jail area.  This would be a great area to get creative with.

We can't have a complicated AI adjust the difficulty of a surf map (not that I know of anyway), but both timers and other players might prove useful in adjusting the difficulty of a surf path.  It's of course up to the mapper to figure out the specifics, but the most likely way to change difficulty would be through manipulating obstacles.

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Offline SintaxError

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2011, 06:44:14 PM »
EVOLUTIONNNNN
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Where exactly are you going with this?

Offline Knife

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2011, 08:15:59 PM »
Where exactly are you going with this?
I don't really know. He needs to get online and finish evolution and stickybutts.

Also if you didn't know, your last statement is what surf_evolution is.
Why so Ryan?

Offline FAJ

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2011, 11:33:15 AM »
I think a problem with difficulty in skill surf is the format. Staged (or unstaged, I suppose) maps with instant-retry can afford to be as hard as they want. People will go trial-and-error and surf them until they get them. In this format, any obstacle can be overcome eventually, if you are willing to sink the playing time into it. So mappers make things as difficult as possible, calibrating the difficulty of each successive obstacle to be as difficult as reasonable (or not), assuming a near-perfect completion of the previous obstacles. Players can fail and retry right away, so requiring a perfect run for completion is not really unreasonable.

I guess this is fine for the avid surfer, but for the casual player, they may never have the time to learn the maps and may never be able to complete most of them. Not on a reliable basis anyways.

Offline RazerSurf

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 07:16:36 PM »
I think a problem with difficulty in skill surf is the format. Staged (or unstaged, I suppose) maps with instant-retry can afford to be as hard as they want. People will go trial-and-error and surf them until they get them. In this format, any obstacle can be overcome eventually, if you are willing to sink the playing time into it. So mappers make things as difficult as possible, calibrating the difficulty of each successive obstacle to be as difficult as reasonable (or not), assuming a near-perfect completion of the previous obstacles. Players can fail and retry right away, so requiring a perfect run for completion is not really unreasonable.

I guess this is fine for the avid surfer, but for the casual player, they may never have the time to learn the maps and may never be able to complete most of them. Not on a reliable basis anyways.

I kind of fall in even deeper love with you every time you write a reply.. Is that strange?

Offline FAJ

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 07:19:12 PM »
kinda, considering you pseudo-rage-quit in response to my jokes at your expense  \

Offline SintaxError

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 02:04:18 AM »
I don't really know. He needs to get online and finish evolution and stickybutts.

Also if you didn't know, your last statement is what surf_evolution is.

Map needs a new name because there's already a surf_evolution.

Offline FAJ

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 10:13:31 AM »
Yah, and it was actually kind of a cool looking map.

Something about adaptation might be more appropriate anyways \

Offline RazerSurf

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Re: Map flow
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2011, 09:09:24 PM »
kinda, considering you pseudo-rage-quit in response to my jokes at your expense  \

Don't know what that means, but I'm sure it's offensive. I forgive you though \