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Author Topic: surf_ny_momentum2  (Read 100939 times)

Offline FAJ

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surf_ny_momentum2
« on: April 17, 2012, 11:48:18 AM »
I have been working on a sequel to momentum for a week or two now, and I think I may actually finish this one. The idea is to improve on the original concept, keeping the main ideas. Mapping it has been enjoyable enough, so I won't mind so much if people don't really play these sorts of maps anymore. I would say it is in the old-school style, with enough skill-focused surf to be enjoyable to the newer generation of surfers.



The main concepts are still:
-Different surf paths to reach an 'end room'
-The speed and orientation you enter the 'end room' gets you a better position in the jail/arena
-The paths are interconnected, causing you to pass through the same rooms at different speeds/orientations



What I want to improve on is the variety of surf paths and their risk/return. One of the main flaws in the original momentum was that the original purpose got lost due to ease of a particular path. The reason it is called momentum is because you are supposed to choose the best path for you to maintain speed and enter the end room with maximum momentum for maximum return. The problem was that the one path (which I eventually added a damage trigger to) was very quick and easy and allowed for all levels of jail and kill-button to be reached. Not really any reason to explore or visit any other part of the map.

In order to promote variety in surf path from round to round, the paths have been made more distinct, and surfing an easier one will not allow you to reach the higher levels in jail. Ideally, there are pros and cons to any path you choose.

Path 1-
Pros: It is easy and you likely will not fail. It is fairly fast.
Cons: It gives you a weak position in jail with weak weapons.

Path 2-
Pros: It is pretty easy. If you fail you have the option of switching back to path 1. It is fast.
Cons: Gives weak weapons and a position in the jail vulnerable to surfers choosing harder paths.

Path 3-
Pros: It gives you good jail position and good weapons.
Cons: It is more difficult, and takes longer to complete, allowing easier paths to get some kills before you can reach the arena.

Path 4-
Pros: Grants you kill-button access.
Cons: It is more difficult, takes a longer time to complete and its obstacles may kill you on fail, instead of going to jail.



The paths are all interconnected and use many of the same rooms, so you will still get a momentum-y feel from it I hope. The more distinct risk/rewards per path should make the choice of where to go in the map less of a no-brainer. Failing the kill-button 2-3 rounds in a row might persuade you to try a different path.

Another flaw with the original momentum would be the kill button. 30 seconds to get to it and out-right kills everybody. In the new one it will not be possible to hit it before 1-1.5 minutes in. It will also no longer outright kill everyone, but instead initiate a team vs team mini-game in which the kill-button-presser has a distinct advantage. These games may be randomized.

The jail will likely be very similar. Changes I plan on making would be:
-No longer able to use 'invisible walkway' to reach the other teams side.
-The pit between the two sides will be more desirable, spawning random weapons instead of just a grenade.
-The pit will intermittently allow those inside to get up out to either side of the jail.

The surf is mostly done, but I will be tweaking a few things. Corners along the surf are something I am still working  out, whether I want smooth wall-extensions or prisms on supports, more like the original.

I.E.
This style:


v.s. this style:


Also taking some input one whether I should bother prettying it up and/or adding lighting. I am generally against non-gameplay-supporting elements.

Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »
Yes, finally!
I don't think you should add lights and everything else sounds pretty good.  I like the fact that you removed the kill button option and replace it with something that will be more fun for everyone.
Do you have an ETA for this?

Offline Sangre

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 01:53:58 PM »
is that the map you started years ago ? i hope you dont loose your motivation on that one !

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 02:03:04 PM »
No, I started brand new on this. The other idea for a momentum sequel was to make it more vertical, than horizontal, and have lots of drop tubes and rise tubes. It was sort of a nightmare so I gave up.

I don't really have an ETA, Ryan. The surf is mostly done, save for tweaks. I need to do the jail/arena and any kill-button mechanics still. And I am toying with lighting it, even if it is mostly full-brightish.

So maybe 2 weeks? GF works a lot this week so I have some time to get to it \

Offline scaz.zaf

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 02:20:30 PM »
Gonna need new pants.

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 03:17:21 PM »
Just light it brightly. You could do a lot of little things with the lighting if you do it that way. Looks good btw, curious to see how it surfs.

Edit: Take note newbies, this is how you make a Ripples thread.
I make my maps with Microsoft Paint.

Offline Orange

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 03:30:47 PM »
You can light it amplitude style? That looks almost fullbright.
It looks very very interesting from the screenshots. I'm so excited for this one  \
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Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 03:46:04 PM »
Here are the flowchart style diagrams for the two maps. Shows the surf options of the two a little better than I can with words. You can see in the original momentum (on the right) the skill/choice part is just one node right before the end. There is no real reason to venture from the main path.

(Keep in mind this is a flow chart and the length of the path arrows has no indication of length of that surf section)

(edit- might be easier to just visit the image site and not try to view it on the boards)

Should give you an idea of what I am aiming for.

I also added a hub/platform room where there should be a decent amount of traffic. Put shotguns in their for some mid surf combat. You pretty much need to use that room to get to the 2 harder paths; but you can get to that room on a shorter path, albeit without the speed to continue on to paths 3 or 4. This way, combat-oriented folk can still get a pot-shot or two in on the skill-surfers before they get too fast or far away \
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:49:10 PM by FAJ »

Offline Orange

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 03:50:13 PM »
Omg, now I get why your maps are so good.. You're an engineer! I mean, who the fuck makes (professional) flow charts for their maps?  \
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Offline Tioga060

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 05:44:55 PM »
Looks good as always.

For the jail, I think the nade only pit is the best part of the jail because people have to risk their safety to get a grenade, then they have to choose between using the grenade to kill or to free themselves.

I'd like to see the return of the below jail path where you can either expose yourself or take a difficult surf path.

For the outwards curved ramps, did you use the spike tool or did you make them by hand? I have a new technique that I'm about to post a tutorial on that let's you generate perfectly aligned outwards curved ramps.

As for lighting, I can understand how you want to work solely on gameplay elements but it makes the map a much more polished production when you really perfect the lighting/cubemapping.

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 05:53:52 PM »
I made the outward curves with spikes or torus, depending on the application; it is less time-consuming than to do it as I make normal concave curves. You can make concave curves and convex curves the same way, but it is a pain IMO. The spike is quick and uses very few faces. It does have a limited use in terms of cross-section though.

EDIT-I would be interested in your method though, to see if it differs from mine. Maybe start a new thread generically to see how everyone does their ramps.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 06:05:35 PM by FAJ »

Offline spoz

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 06:33:32 PM »
Quote
But if u really wanna see a screwed up map take a look at that greatriver awesome 1... freaked the shit out of me... its like a child molestation adventure.....

Offline svbg869

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 07:22:32 PM »
im going to agree on the lighting, if you were to add it make it largely full-bright, with a few shadows used more for direction or "hey look over here idiot"

I love your flow charts, and as a response to another post, i have made flow charts before as well, tho mainly for entity systems

Offline KeLLy sLaTeR

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 04:35:05 AM »
why did u got no lightning it looks dumb..

FAJEDIT - Don't feed this troll. TY
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 10:21:52 AM by FAJ »
THIS USER HAS BEEN BANNED

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 08:46:46 PM »
Fiddled around with lighting a bit. Close enough to fullbright for me \




Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2012, 09:26:29 PM »
Looks amazing

pic related, in case you were still curious

Offline svbg869

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2012, 01:54:09 AM »
that looks amazing, much better then full bright

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2012, 04:11:47 AM »
Nice clean look.
I make my maps with Microsoft Paint.

Offline Power-Fusion

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2012, 05:44:28 AM »
Oh god cant wait, sad to see no awp like the first one had. I loved how you had to get it, from below or above. The little boost to get the m249 in jail was amazing too, along with that lower surf route to leave the jail, that connected straight to below spawn. And damn, right when i start converting momentum you add another one for me to do \
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Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2012, 10:11:32 AM »
There will still be an awp spot in the surf, an m249 spot in the jail and the slow area below the jail pit that gives the option to surf back to the map. That path will not send you to beneath the spawn, but will drop you off in the first drop tube (the one in front of the main booster platform). That will keep people from being able to fail on path3, and surf back to path3 without ever becoming vulnerable. If you want another shot at the map from spawn, you have to risk the slow walk.

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2012, 02:36:46 PM »
Ah, awesome, will it still have the same flow, how it was all physically connected?
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Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2012, 02:52:14 PM »
Everything is physically connected, with the exceptions:

-Failing on surf will teleport you to the jail
-Once you have completed the map and are in the 'end room' you equip yourself and teleport to the different jail tiers.
-Kill-button effects/games will teleport the entire map

Leaving jail will be a physical connection to spawn. Leaving the underside of jail via non-vulnerable surf will physically connect to the drop tube.

There is still a little bit of work to be done on the surf; small easter eggs, paths and other tweaks, but mostly it will follow that flowchart.

Offline vsx

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2012, 09:11:02 PM »
this is just too good to be true...
gonna sleep brb

Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 11:24:02 PM »
From what I've gathered, the jail layout will be the same, with minor tweaks to gameplay, correct?  I don't mind this, but I feel like I'd want to see a new layout for a jail from you, because jails have always been your signature and they are always a blast to play them.  That's just my opinion, and either way, I'm going to love this map regardless of what you do with the jail.

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2012, 01:11:46 AM »
The jail will be pretty much the same. It is a big part of what the map is, so I don't want to do something brand new for a sequel.

What it looks like so far:



I am going back through and lighting the map now, but I am having some issues. Mainly that I don't want to have fixtures for the light sources, but I also don't want there to be patches of bright and shadows. Mostly I want an even gentle light without hard shadows, so any input would be appreciated there.

Fullbright:

vs
Lit:


I don't like patchiness like that, or hard shadows. I want to use the fewest amount of lights possible as well. Most of the rooms will just require a lot of tweaking of position of the entity.

Offline Panzerhandschuh

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2012, 03:19:35 AM »
The fullbright version looks dull and boring while the lit version looks a bit more vibrant. Are you using ryan's light settings?

Offline Orange

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2012, 04:36:18 AM »
I love how the jail looks! How you can make something look amazing with just three or four different textures has always amazed me. Seeing this makes me want to start mapping again. \
I think it looks better when it's lit, even if it's minor.
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Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2012, 10:07:47 AM »
The fullbright version looks dull and boring while the lit version looks a bit more vibrant. Are you using ryan's light settings?

I agree the lit version is better looking; I am going to continue to light it, but I am trying to find a good way to avoid patchiness. Maybe it doesn't bother everyone, but as a fullbright-lover, I hate patchiness on walls/ramps \

The light setting are brightness 225, and 0 0 -.05, I believe.

Offline Tioga060

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2012, 02:32:16 PM »
If you raise the lightmap scales to like 256 it will fix a lot of your shadow problems(by basically removing the shadows). If you see weird shadows between two brushes that share an edge add them to the same smoothing group.

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2012, 02:41:35 PM »
I have tried lightmaps between 128 and 512. I am not so much concerned with lighting errors. I am concerned with patchy lighting, like I showed in that screenshot. its not a matter of lightmap size as much as it is just the way light entities work. They are a light source, and I am trying to approximate fullbright, which has no source.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and put in light fixtures. That way shadows and directional lighting wouldn't be so out of place.

Offline Orange

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2012, 02:51:31 PM »
I agree the lit version is better looking; I am going to continue to light it, but I am trying to find a good way to avoid patchiness. Maybe it doesn't bother everyone, but as a fullbright-lover, I hate patchiness on walls/ramps \

The light setting are brightness 225, and 0 0 -.05, I believe.

It's your map after all dude, don't rush it for other people (although I wouldn't mind this map being released very soon \) I think nobody will mind the shadow patches (I know I don't, I've gotten used to my terrible lighting technique).
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Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2012, 02:58:30 PM »
FULLBRIGHT

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2012, 03:06:32 PM »
I will likely have the beta be fullbright, so I can get design/gameplay input before/during the lighting process. I will just turn vrad off this next week and try finishing it up. It really is mostly done.

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2012, 06:19:33 PM »
Getting some of my lighting issues under control. Will take a break from that for a bit to work on finishing the surf completely.

Took some then and now pictures of familiar places, momentum2 vs momentum 1

Main ramp room:


Main booster platform:


Jail entrance:


Tier2 arena entrance:


Alternate path fail entrance:

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2012, 06:24:21 PM »
I don't mean to be a dick-riding nyuga, but that shit is HOT

Offline svbg869

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2012, 03:13:16 AM »
all of the amazing ness
i want
nao

beta?

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2012, 09:11:53 PM »
Looking amazing, love the similarity, just like you had said it feels more like an improvement or update then a sequel, and i like that idea alot. Beta
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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2012, 09:10:54 AM »
This makes me so undescribably happy.. FAJ, thank ye'

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2012, 11:35:30 AM »
I can probably get a beta together by the end of this week. Buck has a test server for it, we will provide the IP to SolidSurf when we do it.

I still need to:
-Tweak lighting (mostly hunting down weird shadows and eliminating patchiness)
-Finish jail (mostly done, but needs tier 4 completed and special things added)
-Add any additional surf (things like awp and possibly an auxiliary path)
-Finish kill-button room
-Add kill button game(s)

I am still without good direction for kill-button effects. Any suggestions there would be appreciated. i would like to be some sort of interactive death for people, instead of a straight kill.

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Re: surf_ny_momentum2
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2012, 01:45:17 PM »
I am still without good direction for kill-button effects. Any suggestions there would be appreciated. i would like to be some sort of interactive death for people, instead of a straight kill.

You could always have everyone get teleported to a crazy death tube or something.
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