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Author Topic: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM  (Read 41236 times)

Offline RambJoe

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Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« on: June 10, 2012, 07:57:34 PM »
http://gamebanana.com/css/tuts/10863

How to make them into models: http://gamebanana.com/css/tuts/10866

You should make them into models, so they don't corrupt.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 12:26:48 PM by RambJoe »

Offline Orange

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 08:06:17 PM »
Nice tutorial, but this guy has got a lot of guts to say that this is the ONLY RIGHT way to do it. As far as I know, there's no way of making ramps that are 100% bug-free?
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Offline RazerSurf

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 08:13:51 PM »
Nice tutorial, but this guy has got a lot of guts to say that this is the ONLY RIGHT way to do it. As far as I know, there's no way of making ramps that are 100% bug-free?

source engine won't allow that to happen..

Offline RambJoe

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 12:27:36 PM »
http://gamebanana.com/css/tuts/10866

The new model tutorial.

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 02:44:40 PM »
Rotating them then using vertex manipulation is NEVER THE "RIGHT" WAY to make a ramp.

It's an extra step which not only complicates the geometry, but raises the risk of stickies. Every time you vertex manipulate a ramp, ESPECIALLY in the manner that he's doing, you're putting yourself at risk for strange compile errors and brush errors that won't be explainable by a compile log. Been there, done that, trust me, I'm talking from experience here. After all, I've tried to make just about any kind of ramp that you can think of.

Also, I already made a bug-free ramp tutorial on here, using the same concept as this except without the dumbfuck vertex manipulation. Edit: (though my download link is dead, anyone have the original file?)

I mean, I'm sure the ramps work, but this is not the "RIGHT" way to do it; it's not even close.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 02:49:36 PM by Paper-Cut »
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Offline Panzerhandschuh

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 02:47:47 PM »
Rotating them then using vertex manipulation is NEVER THE "RIGHT" WAY to make a ramp.

Also, I already made a bug-free ramp tutorial on here, using the same concept as this except without the dumbfuck vertex manipulation. He moved the vertices because he doesn't know how to hold ALT?

I mean, I'm sure the ramps work, but this is not the "RIGHT" way to do it; it's not even close.

Using alt is less precise and takes more time.

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 02:51:01 PM »
Using alt is less precise and takes more time.

Less precise, hardly. When you zoom in fullscreen and align the vertices, it's not going to be misaligned, especially if doing it the correct way which will ensure no sticky corners at the bottom. And there's no way this takes less time; it's the exact same process except adding one more step.
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Offline RambJoe

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 02:55:48 PM »
CHECK EM: tell him using the alt method is far less accurate and actually causes more ramp glitches. my surfs are completely bug free and are absolutely accurate. if you do it the way i do they will absolutely 100% not glitch out. everything he said was dead wrong.

Offline Panzerhandschuh

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 02:58:07 PM »
Less precise, hardly. When you zoom in fullscreen and align the vertices, it's not going to be misaligned, especially if doing it the correct way which will ensure no sticky corners at the bottom. And there's no way this takes less time; it's the exact same process except adding one more step.

Well it's faster for me since I'm aligning 2 vertices to grid rather than zooming in and manually dragging them until they're near perfect and then zooming back out.

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 02:59:45 PM »
CHECK EM: tell him using the alt method is far less accurate and actually causes more ramp glitches. my surfs are completely bug free and are absolutely accurate. if you do it the way i do they will absolutely 100% not glitch out. everything he said was dead wrong.

No surf if 100% glitch free and absolutely accurate. If it were, it would glitch because of the engine. He can call me wrong all he wants, but you have to think about the simple geometry of it. You're taking a simple triangle and distorting its faces to fix the grid.
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Offline RambJoe

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 03:56:40 PM »
CHECK EM: tell him it is glitch free because of the way I make it. the 64 unit base makes it bug free because of the way it makes the ramp overlap. especially if you convert the ramp into a model, it will never (at least i've never had it happen) glitch. nyro found most of this out through weeks of testing and i'm positive this guy is wrong. 100%. you can paste this but this guy really doesn't know what hes talking about

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 04:32:52 PM »
CHECK EM: tell him it is glitch free because of the way I make it. the 64 unit base makes it bug free because of the way it makes the ramp overlap. especially if you convert the ramp into a model, it will never (at least i've never had it happen) glitch. nyro found most of this out through weeks of testing and i'm positive this guy is wrong. 100%. you can paste this but this guy really doesn't know what hes talking about

Totally. It's not like I haven't been making surf maps for like, oh, I don't know, 5 years now.

Of course converting it to a model will make it less buggy; that's not my point at all. Using vertex manipulation on any non-quadrilateral geometry is asking for trouble.

It's funny how he can be 100% positive that I'm wrong when it wasn't even him that did the research in the first place.
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Offline RambJoe

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 04:54:16 PM »
CHECK EM: because i listen to the guy who actually did the research and knows more about mapping than any person ive ever met

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 04:57:55 PM »
CHECK EM: because i listen to the guy who actually did the research and knows more about mapping than any person ive ever met

I'm sure he's "met" a lot of mappers, not having a thread on here and being a new member on GB.

I'm done having a conversation through proxy.
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Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 05:15:38 PM »
Check em sounds like a turd masher, just throwing that out there.

He only just discovered this now?  Good for him, he gets a D for effort.
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Offline Panzerhandschuh

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 06:04:10 PM »
Using vertex manipulation on any non-quadrilateral geometry is asking for trouble.

I don't get it. He's only using the vertex tool to move brushes, not modify them. How would that cause any problems?

Offline Sangfroid

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 06:48:38 PM »
@Panzer, he said to align one of the vertices to the grid in order to allow for the next rotated brush to be snapped to that vertex. that operation would modify the brush (however slightly that is). not that i'm agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here; i would have thought there would be no problems using the vertex tool, unless it happens to be broken in the hammer implementation. ignore that, just re-read it, and he said to select all segments and align the vertex to the grid, which i'm assuming is actually a move/translate operation. sorry =p
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:02:52 PM by Sangfroid »

~i copied this from someone else. it's awesome~

Offline Tioga060

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 06:51:18 PM »
These Lt guys have a bit of a problem with thinking they're the best mappers alive(hence why he won't even "grace" us with his presence by registering), but this actually is a functional method to align ramps, papercut. You're not actually changing the size of the ramp, just aligning the edges perfectly.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:54:37 PM by Tioga060 »

Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2012, 07:13:34 PM »
>Use 20 year old method to make ramps
>Claim it's the best ever and you discovered it
>Call everyone else bad for using anything else, even though there are much more viable methods that take less time

Subjective and autistic much?
Yeah, I'm glad that cornhole didn't register here.

Offline FAJ

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2012, 07:14:08 PM »
Perfectly aligned or not, there is no way to make a bug-free ramp in a multiplayer online surf map. A single solid brush can still stick sometimes.

Offline Panzerhandschuh

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 07:22:41 PM »
>Use 20 year old method to make ramps
>Claim it's the best ever and you discovered it
>Call everyone else bad for using anything else, even though there are much more viable methods that take less time

Subjective and autistic much?
Yeah, I'm glad that cornhole didn't register here.

If it's an old method then it wasn't easy to find a tutorial anywhere until some youtube video I remember seeing ~1-2 years ago. He didn't claim he discovered it, he even said he learned it from nyro at the end of the tutorial. What are other viable methods that take less time?

Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 07:24:05 PM »
If it's an old method then it wasn't easy to find a tutorial anywhere until some youtube video I remember seeing ~1-2 years ago. He didn't claim he discovered it, he even said he learned it from nyro at the end of the tutorial. What are other viable methods that take less time?

Name one...


That.

Offline Panzerhandschuh

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 07:27:17 PM »
There are no other methods that are faster and more precise.

Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 07:35:00 PM »
 I'm pretty sure they all are, unless the person doing it is full retard.

Offline Panzerhandschuh

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 07:38:38 PM »
Then why can't you name any?

Offline FAJ

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 08:47:42 PM »
I don't know what is special about his process, I only skimmed it; but if you want a fast method to make a ramp, you can make a torus do the job with little manipulation. A rotated playerclip copy of it makes the surf very smooth and leaves no edges exposed.

Pretty sure Sintax has a quick calculator somewhere (maybe used to be on the wiki?) to do the whole process in a single paste-special.

In any case, making the ramps is really the least of a surf mappers problems. \

Offline scaz.zaf

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2012, 09:18:27 PM »

Offline RambJoe

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2012, 09:34:46 PM »
Everyone's forgetting about the 2nd link, making the ramps into models.

That's very important to create the perfect ramp, as Hammer will corrupt brush ramps.

Offline Untelo

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2012, 09:51:31 PM »
Surf maps have been around for almost a decade now, and only a fraction of them use models for ramps. While there are of course glitches from time to time, the old method in the hands of a skilled mapper can be used to create very good ramps despite "being corrupted" by hammer.

Perhaps you're just not a skilled mapper.

Offline RambJoe

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2012, 10:03:53 PM »
Surf maps have been around for almost a decade now, and only a fraction of them use models for ramps. While there are of course glitches from time to time, the old method in the hands of a skilled mapper can be used to create very good ramps despite "being corrupted" by hammer.

Perhaps you're just not a skilled mapper.

Yeah you're right man, I'm not skilled enough to let my ramps be corrupted by Hammer and still be very good.

Offline FAJ

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2012, 11:16:41 PM »
I think both tutorials are helpful. The way they were presented was not received well here.

It is not a good thing to put down things like this. We should be encouraging surf tutorials here.

Lets please not continue the banter. Try and keep it to civil discussion of surf ramp manufacture.

Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 12:47:05 AM »
Then why can't you name any?
Why should I name any?  I can name a few, buy why?  I'm not naming any simply because I don't care enough, this thread is dildos and should be wiped.

Nothing against you, panzer, as I like you and all, but this thread is just terrible...

Offline Orange

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2012, 09:19:34 AM »
Can't we just stick with the current method? You can't really go wrong with it unless you're a complete retard with parkinson's.
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Offline RambJoe

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2012, 01:21:01 PM »
Quote
As far as I know, there's no way of making ramps that are 100% bug-free?
100% surf-bug free. There's another bug that happens by nature that over the years has come to be known by "sticky walls." There's nothing you can do about this. It happens when the engine tries to make sense of a player colliding within a specific unit of space. This same thing occurs when you stick to vertical walls that are slanted. This bug has been known about and even utilized since '99 and possibly before.

Surf-bug occurs when people align the vertices, no matter how accurately, and save/close the file.

Note the visible nodraw surface. This is a face that the player can collide with. There's a very simple fix for that!

...It would be adding a base to the bottom of the surf and aligning the surf with the vertex at the bottom of the base.

You can see how far this vertex has moved after saving and re-opening, but what happens is the actual surf faces remain intersecting by quite a distance leaving a smooth connection that the player can surf on easily.

The reason for converting surfs into models is to GREATLY reduce resources, while allowing for more detailed surfs. You can even add in more surf chunks (smaller width at a lower degree) to make the surfs even rounder.

Quote
It's an extra step which not only complicates the geometry, but raises the risk of stickies. Every time you vertex manipulate a ramp, ESPECIALLY in the manner that he's doing, you're putting yourself at risk for strange compile errors and brush errors that won't be explainable by a compile log. Been there, done that, trust me, I'm talking from experience here. After all, I've tried to make just about any kind of ramp that you can think of.
Paper-cut, I get the feeling that you are under the impression that we are tweaking the surf brush while vertexing. Sangfroid was also thought this.

No actual vertex manipulation is being done, it's just being moved so that the point of interest is snapped to the grid, always perfectly aligned.

Quote
These Lt guys have a bit of a problem with thinking they're the best mappers alive(hence why he won't even "grace" us with his presence by registering)
Just nyro is the best. He has proved it time and time again.


Ryan_S, I don't even know what point you're trying to make...

Offline Orange

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2012, 01:48:42 PM »
Making surf ramps is unnatural and that's why hammer doesn't like it. I'm sure using the vertex tool will keep your ramps nicely aligned, but it comes with great risks. Trust me, I will do whatever it takes to keep ramps aligned and not fuck up the vertexes, but I'm a bit anxious to use the vertex tool.
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Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2012, 05:50:56 PM »
Terrible method, terrible thread.

Kill yourself.

jk, but seriously, fuck off.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:14:51 PM by Ryan_S »

Offline RazerSurf

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2012, 06:13:17 PM »
Excuse me, but what the hell is going on here? THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE PERFECT RAMPS. The source engine just doesn't work like that, now end the argument. There is really no need to call people idiots just because they use the vertex tool to align vertices.. Make your ramps however you like, they're still gonna fuck you up. As far as I know, the engine is CS 1.6 doesn't bug like the source engine does? But that might be because you can't make properly smooth ramps in 1.6.

Offline Tioga060

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2012, 08:11:26 PM »
lol @ thinking nyro is the best mapper. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Aoki's work is much better than nyro's will ever be.

So I guess we can add the LT people to the list of people rambjoe unconditionally worships, right next to morning.

THB though this thread kinda proves how rooted solidsurf is in it's outdated train of thought. This method for making ramps actually is much better than our current methods. It's faster and creates the least amount of ramp glitches. The information was presented in a douchebag elitist way, but it's true nonetheless.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 08:13:31 PM by Tioga060 »

Offline FAJ

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2012, 01:04:27 AM »
I thought it just proved that between skill-mappers, all they have to differentiate their mapping approach is the way they line up surf prisms? \

Offline S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

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Re: Smooth surf ramps the RIGHT way by CHECK EM
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2012, 02:23:17 AM »
Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen!