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Author Topic: surf_liminal  (Read 19105 times)

Offline Diealready

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surf_liminal
« on: April 19, 2014, 05:09:48 PM »
So this map is going to be pretty experimental.

First off, I'm using model-based ramps that are made in blender, similar to kompile's ramps in surf_telestar, though I've made around 300 ramp models with the ability to use 4-5 different textures on the same model (face, ends, edges, bottom, and back textures), with up to 8 skins on each model (models with back textures can only have 6 skins due to studiomdl.exe limitations.) I'll be releasing them for everyone to use after I'm done making all of them.

Secondly, if you look at maps like surf_odyssey, surf_parc_colore, etc they all use a simple trigger system to add a linear course to the surf. I wanted to take that kind of system to another level.
Through 187 filters and hours of I/O work, I made a system that uses 6 doors. The player must surf through all 6 in order to be able to reach the end.
The part that needed 187 filters? The player can go through them in any order. That means that they could go through door 1, to 4, to 2, to 3, to 6, then to 5, and then be able to pass on to the next stage. Same with 2 - 5 - 1 - 6 - 4 - 3. Any order. You also can't exploit this system, surfing through the same door 6 times does fuck-all, you have to go through all 6.
It works like this:

- Player is named "123456"
- Player goes through door 2.
- They are renamed to "13456"
- Player goes through door 6.
- The name is tested against 21 filters, each one is for a name that has the number 6 in it.
- One filter will pass, fire an "OnPass" output, and rename the player accordingly. In this case, they will be renamed to "1345"
- Player goes through door 1.
- The name is tested, and the player is renamed to "345"
- Player goes through door 4, they are renamed to "35"
- Let's say the player goes through door 1 again. The name "35" is passed through the filters, each looking for a different name containing "1"
- None of the filters pass, so nothing happens.
- Player goes through door 3, they are renamed to "5"
- Player goes through door 5, they are renamed to "0"


(It was easier to make it all separate and then merge them all into two triggers per door after it was done. (This is also only 14% for entdata.))
It's a process of elimination, I would have had to use around 700 filters if I added a number to the player's name instead.


So for the actual surf map? I only have a couple test stages that I'm working on, and I haven't figured out an aesthetic to use quite yet so I've got nothing interesting in the wip-screenshot department. I'm going to try and make a bunch of different stages that use this system, using boosts and arena-style surfs with the doors scattered around in hard to reach, yet visible places, as well as being fun to play of course.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 04:36:28 PM by Diealready »

Offline Kompile

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2014, 06:55:18 PM »
That's so rad! I love the way complex I/O stuff looks. Laying it out all neat.  \

BTW, how did you get to 300 models?! I only made 16.  \




Offline Diealready

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2014, 07:41:01 PM »
Well I made a ton of differently sized ramps and clipped variants of them. So I've got 4 different sizes of a double-sided ramp that curves 90 degrees up, then 4 of them down, then 4 of them turning right. Then I have 4 one-sided ramps that curve 90 degrees up, 4 down, and 8 right turns because the inside ramp curve and then the outside curve.
Then there's 45 degree ramps in the same fashion, 22.5 degree, and then special ramps like helices, straight segments, straight segments cut at different angles, it all adds up.

There's gonna be like 600 when it's done, they're all organized in folders and have a common nomenclature so it isn't confusing to find the ramp you're looking for.

Offline The call me queer

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 03:25:19 AM »
Too bad Valve are idiots and scrapped the goal # entity system, you can dwindle down the amount of entities to about 15-20 or so.

untouch developed this system a few years ago, but I guess it's cool to see it implemented. I'd be willing to be there's a more efficient way to do it.

Offline The call me queer

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 05:17:24 AM »
untouch's system is like 1500 entities for 20 stages, lol.

Offline Diealready

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 01:50:54 PM »
lmao, this system just needs the 187 filters and that's it, the triggers can be copied and pasted for however many stages you want. Just limited to 6 doors per stage unless you split it to two segments somehow, though I think more than 6 in one stage would just get really tedious.

Also yeah I looked for more efficient methods, a close one was parenting an invisible brush entity to the player and then counting if they have all the entities at the end of the stage, but objects that are parented to the player lose the ability to activate triggers for some reason so it didn't work out.

Offline FAJ

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2014, 10:54:10 AM »
Might have saved yourself some I/O time creating a single system and paste-special for each player spawn. Each player would have 1 unique name and a counter just for them that gets incremented when they beat a level for the first time.

Would give you the opportunity to have mini-teams for future systems, where people can choose their "team" by selecting their filter name. Like co-op mode. Also would allow you to add on levels easy without messing with much. Just add and re-paste special.

Would also open some easy modifiers for players that check their counter. You could darken a player color as they got closer to winning, for example.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 10:56:28 AM by FAJ »

Offline Diealready

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 04:52:01 AM »


You'd start on the red-outlined platform at the bottom, then jump down onto the curved ramps below. Those lead into a tunnel that teleports you up to the higher ramps, where you can surf along and go through the hoops in whatever order. Each ramp leads into a landmark teleporter that sends you to the other side of the stage, there will be lots of these teleports because I'm trying to encourage high-speed surfing while avoiding forcing people to surf in circles around the stage just to keep their speed.

I don't know if I should make it so that the last door just instantly teleports you to the next stage, or if I should try to put in some sort of end-zone, just worried that if I do the latter it will not be very obvious that it's the end of the stage.

Offline NamedPlayer

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 03:23:48 AM »
Genius idea but i feel like there is a much simpler way to do this.

Offline The call me queer

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 01:07:58 AM »
There is in Team Fortress Classic \

Offline Diealready

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 02:43:33 AM »
Here's an alpha version of the map: http://www.mediafire.com/download/iu2mgcyc8rso8nv/surf_liminal_a1.zip

There's the spawn and 3 of the stages. I made it so that when you go through a gate, it plays a "ding" sound to show that you went through that gate. If you've already gone through a gate, it does not play the sound when going through it again. This is done client-side with a point_clientcommand going "play buttons/bell1.wav" when your targetname is changed.

Offline moonrabbit

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 06:12:48 AM »
I really like the look of this map. Aesthetically you're doing a bang up job.

I feel like difficulty wise, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you made it on the 6th door you'd automatically be teleported, but having to count whether or not you've gone through all 6 doors is tiresome, and confusing especially on symmetrical maps. You're in a difficult spot, where I feel like you need a text display of how many doors a player has been through so as to make sure they don't try to finish a level when they've missed one.

It's a nice idea, and visually it's really well done, but I feel like without any context the level system is just confusing. I had to come back onto the forums to figure out why I wasn't going to the next level, and it was because I didn't understand it correctly.

Offline Diealready

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 12:02:15 PM »
Everyone seems to be confused by things in the map so I'm going to update the spawn with a bit more of a noticeable/visual explanation of how the map works.
I've also been informed that classnames are functionally the same as targetnames and that I can have 2 of these goal systems running at once, which will allow me to make the stages completable in any order.
Because of that though,
I think I'm going to scrap these stages and work on making them more arena-like. Right now, they are very dependent on the use of the teleporters, which should be more optional than they are now.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 02:10:41 PM by Diealready »

Offline Krazy

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2014, 03:19:27 AM »
This is pretty damn cool, it's a fun and interesting concept. Also, the map looks amazing.

Looking forward to this.

Offline NamedPlayer

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 02:15:28 PM »
I think I'm going to scrap these stages and work on making them more arena-like. Right now, they are very dependent on the use of the teleporters, which should be more optional than they are now.

Arena based skill surfs are the best. So much freedom for every stage (i usually surf to my favorite stage and trick surf for hours) but at the same time its difficult and intense because you can try to get a good time.

Offline .george

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2015, 10:49:48 PM »
I don't know if you have abandoned this project but I thought I'd just replay theres a much better way of doing this trigger system using OnUser1, I made it for a bhop map and then used it, you only need 2 filters per stage and 1 entrance per stage and it doesn't fail, although set up is wierd because 3 triggers at the end of each stage.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 11:01:20 PM by .george »

Offline RizzLe

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2015, 01:04:09 AM »
The player can go through them in any order.

I don't think this is possible with OnUser1
Juxtapo

Offline .george

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2015, 03:44:36 PM »
It handles that trust me, I'll post the bsp here its already on timer servers for bhop you cannot exploit it \ 4 stages in any order and stages could be added with 2 filters per stage.
TL;DR OnUser1 is as powerful as you want it to be.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67121397/bhop_speedrun_four_v2.rar

Offline Diealready

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2015, 10:26:05 PM »
very late reply but I looked through that just now, from what I can see you're basically just adding 1 to a math_counter when someone beats the stage and giving the player a targetname when the math_counter = 4...

That doesn't work for multiplayer, at all. Multiple values need to be stored for individual results, if two different players beat two stages, the math_counter goes up to 4 when they haven't actually beaten the whole map, and they finish early. It doesn't work.



Anyway this map has turned into a linear with multiple routes, which I feel will work better and be more fun to surf than 6 stages with awkward rings to jump through and keep track of.

Offline .george

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2015, 07:28:16 PM »
very late reply but I looked through that just now, from what I can see you're basically just adding 1 to a math_counter when someone beats the stage and giving the player a targetname when the math_counter = 4...

That doesn't work for multiplayer, at all. Multiple values need to be stored for individual results, if two different players beat two stages, the math_counter goes up to 4 when they haven't actually beaten the whole map, and they finish early. It doesn't work.



Anyway this map has turned into a linear with multiple routes, which I feel will work better and be more fun to surf than 6 stages with awkward rings to jump through and keep track of.

Cool, would love to see what you come out with, but if you read my post, you would notice that it has been tried on multiple servers without fail denying the situation you mentioned happening.

It works by the fact that OnTrigger runs for one person at once at the delay you specify its not ideal however if two people finish different stages at once, the fall time covers the amount of time needed for them to be counted and if it doesn't then they have to wait at the bottom of the hall (small caveat, but this never has happened as of yet) since its 0.05 I believe for 1 count, so literally instantaneous for anyone unless you have like what 20 people finish the stage at once, (never going to happen) either way it uses that fact, and it's a pretty nice thing to use as you can subvert the normal and do thing like this (it still requires onuser1/2 to do the math_counter work individually).

(P.S: I think your visual concepts are amazing, I'm shit at good ideas in the visual department)

Offline vendetta

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2015, 09:54:28 AM »
This is the coolest thing I have ever seen. Just beautiful.

How did you do the geometry that fades into nothing? Would you be willing to share your ramp library? How did you do those smooth teleports?

Suggestion: Give some visual representation for gates you've been through. Make them grey, fill them with a box, give them lights.

I think you're missing a trick moving to linear track. I think to offer max community value these days maps need to be single player competitive: leaderboards work for linear maps (and they will work for a linear map with options) but this is a way for freestyle maps to offer the same single player incentive. Imagine the leaderboards for greatriver with these gates added in.

Offline Paper-Cut

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2015, 08:53:39 PM »
This looks trippy as fuck.  Bravo.
I make my maps with Microsoft Paint.

Offline Power-Fusion

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Re: surf_liminal
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 12:59:18 AM »
spoz: I like my women how i like my filesystems... FAT and 16